STL-Style Blog

Tuesday, May 25, 2010

Downtown St. Louis before St. Louis Centreless

It's hard to imagine what downtown St. Louis was like before the abominable St. Louis Centre drained the life from the sidewalks and into a failed soul-sucking vacuum of misery that unfortunately defined our CBD for an entire generation. In honor of the long-overdue demolition of the St. Louis Centre skybridge, here's a snapshot of downtown St. Louis, circa 1980, where St. Louis Centre now rots...

(Photo courtesy of the cool dude at Soulard Market who sold it to me)

No doubt, the upcoming retrofit of St. Louis Centre will be a huge improvement to its current sad state, but a suburban mall-turned-parking garage with streetfront retail is still a far cry from the mixed-use urban fabric that used to be there.

No use crying over spilled milk, but this photograph gives us a standard to aim for. Will the shiny, new Merchants Exchange development attract the volume of pedestrian traffic that an average downtown street corner had 30 years ago?

POSTED BY Jeff Vines
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Alex Ihnen on 25-May-2010 09:27 AM

It's easy to be nostalgic, and I am, but Woolworth's did their part to kill the historic nature of this part of downtown. Was it 100% better than St. Louis Centre? Sure. But it was also bad.

Jeff on 25-May-2010 09:52 AM

You have a point, Alex, but at least Woolworth's was oriented to the street. I can't even think of a retail chain that has opted to fill an existing building rather than decimate the streetscape to accommodate their parking lots and drive-thrus in the recent past. Woolworth's clearly capitalized on the sheer density and vitality of the intersection at the time-- the way cities are supposed to be. Just look at the activity on the streets on what appears to be a normal business day. These days, rush hour at 6th & Locust is a single pedestrian crossing the street.

threeonefour on 25-May-2010 12:09 PM

Other than the 1950s cladding, which still looks better than the facades of most downtown garages, I don't see what was so bad about Woolworth's. Jeff, as you said, Woolworth's was a pedestrian-oriented store built up to the street with similar setbacks to neighboring buildings. It may not have been beautiful, but it fit into the surrounding urban fabric better than its successor, which siphoned retail from the streets, and ultimately, from downtown altogether when it failed.

As I said on Facebook, I'm old enough to vaguely remember shopping at Woolworth's and Stix Baer & Fuller in the days before the buildings between Famous and Stix were demolished for St. Louis Centre. And the pedestrian activity in the picture above was quite typical for this area back then. Unfortunately, St. Louis Centre siphoned many of the businesses and activity from downtown streets, and when it lost businesses and shoppers to the Saint Louis Galleria just a few years later, this activity left downtown altogether.

There are still too many dead spaces in this area, but hopefully the ground level retail in the garage and the old Stix/Dillard's Building will be a first step toward generating more pedestrian activity, and hopefully it will also shore up Macy's, which after a few years of improving sales, could use a few more shoppers now that there are far fewer people working upstairs in the Railway Exchange Building.

BC on 01-Jun-2010 12:45 PM

It's hard to believe that's 6th and Locust. That intersection isn't this busy even at lunch time these days. Great photo.

STL HEART on 13-Oct-2010 10:05 PM

I love St.Louis and there shopping - check out http://theshopstl.com

Monday, May 17, 2010

Anti-Wrecking Ball Hootenanny!

Those of you who have been following our efforts to preserve our beloved mid-century high-rise San Luis Apartments know that the outcome wasn't a good one. What used to be a sleek, retro apartment tower at the corner of Lindell & Taylor in the CWE has since been replaced with a drab surface parking lot.

But all was not lost. A impassioned group of city residents went to court to make sure that concerned citizens will have a voice in future preservation matters that violate city ordinances and historic district guidelines. The final verdict is still out, but thanks to the dedication of our brilliant attorneys, we are hopeful that the laws will be clarified so public process is respected in the future.

All proceeds go directly to our hard-working legal team and the St. Louis Building Arts Foundation, which is hosting the event.

For a lot more information on this issue, visit No Parking Lot on Lindell!

What: Anti-Wrecking Ball: Soulard Stable Hootenanny
Where: Stahl Stable, 2412 Menard Street
When: 8:00 p.m. this Saturday, May 22nd
Cost: $10 benefits the Friends of the San Luis and the St. Louis Building Arts Foundation

Bands, buildings and beer - Saturday night never sounded so good.

POSTED BY Jeff Vines
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Wednesday, May 12, 2010

Is Saint Louis Northern or Southern?

Anyone from St. Louis is well aware of this city’s identity crisis. Yes, we are a decidedly Midwestern city, but do we have more in common with the North or the South? We delve into this question with these facts in mind:

Southern: St. Louis has a vaguely New Orleans-esque, lazy Mississippi River demeanor.

Northern: Our industrial history is much more intertwined with places such as Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland and Milwaukee than with any city in the South.

Southern: Missouri was a slave state, and the notorious Dred Scott decision was handed down in St. Louis.

Jacob Lawrence's The Great Migration

Northern: St. Louis was a bastion of pro-Union sentiment, and the city’s huge German population is what arguably prevented the entire state of Missouri from officially joining the Confederacy.

Southern: We have debutante balls (Veiled Prophet, Fleur-de-Lis) and an old-school provincialism (“Where’d you go to high school?”)

Northern: The unmistakable St. Louis accent is a northern urban dialect, with more traits in common with dialects of the Great Lakes and northeast than with any Southern accent, as assessed by a linguistics study by the University of Pennsylvania.

Image courtesy of University of Pennsylvania

Northern: You’d be hard-pressed to find sweet tea and grits on most menus in this city, nor is “ya’ll” a feature of our local speech.

So while there are undeniable southern influences in St. Louis culture, there’s nothing about this place that screams “Dixie.” In STL-Style’s opinion, St. Louis has economic, demographic, political and developmental characteristics much more similar to northern industrial cities than to southern cities. So what do you think?

POSTED BY Randy Vines
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Chris Andoe on 12-May-2010 10:52 AM

As someone from Tulsa who has lived all over I would agree. There's a hurriedness and curtness in business that would be considered rude in the South. For instance if you were to call about an apartment in Oklahoma and mention that you were from elsewhere, the agent would ask what brings you to town and talk about the city and what's happening. Call an agent in St. Louis and say you're relocating, and they'll likely respond with "OK. How can I help you?"
Another thing is that a Southerner is likely to pretend to like you when they don't, where a St. Louisan will act indifferent and aloof. (I prefer the latter)
Finally ask anyone from KC and they'll say we're Northern (and may include rude lol).

Ryan Reed on 12-May-2010 11:12 AM

This question could be asked with several cities located near the Mason Dixon Line. For example, Cincinatti, Wheeling, Baltimore and even Nashville to an extent. I think we have become a northern city. After statehood an influx of southerns migrated to the state and city and recreated their culture here. However, the massive amount of German immgrants in the 18th century but a serious damper on the southerness of the city and pretty much wiped it out. After living in the deep south I realized I was midwesterner. There are huge cultural differences between the cities in the deep south and St. Louis as Chris noted above. I say we are northern.

you know who on 12-May-2010 11:12 AM

I'll take you to all kinds of places in the city proper that serve up sweet tea and grits. Also I do believe that y'all is definitely becoming more ubiquitous.

Nik on 12-May-2010 01:34 PM

We've always been a Northern City in the South. Factories and the Great Divorce will show you that.

Jeff on 12-May-2010 02:14 PM

I think St. Louis has a quirky charm that is absent in a lot of northern cities, but overall there is no denying that St. Louis shares more in common with eastern and northern cities, from a physical standpoint at least. Culturally, too, St. Louis feels decidedly northern. We have managed to retain a decent amount of ethnic enclaves (in contrast to the dispersed, sprawled population of most southern cities). Anyone who visits St. Louis and honestly thinks it feels Southern has most likely not spent much time in the true South. Now, Missourah is an entirely different story.

Dan Burghoff on 12-May-2010 06:25 PM

I had this very conversation last week with someone who has lived in Cleveland, Atlanta, Louisville, and now St. Louis. She claimed that St. Louis is definitely southern, more so than Louisville. Her litmus test? Jello. Apparently in the north, Jello is a salad served on lettuce. In the south, it is a dessert. Given that I have never seen Jello on a bed of lettuce, I guess I'm a southern boy!

Ryan Reed on 12-May-2010 07:43 PM

That's funny Dan! Missouri is definitely regionally bi-polar. When I was living in Georgia, home grown Georgians would refer to me as a fellow southerner when I said I was from Missouri. If I said I moved here from St. Louis southerns would give me a hard time for being a northerner. My pal moved from her native Tennessee to St. Louis at the age of ten. When they got here her Mom felt the need to set her and her siblings down and remind them they were Southerner not northerners like the people in St. Louis.

Chris Naffziger on 13-May-2010 07:53 AM

The woman buying drugs from my neighbors a couple of weeks ago used "ya'll."

samizdat on 13-May-2010 08:43 AM

"...prolific Dred Scott decision..." Prolific? Huh? Horrific, perhaps? Methinks a visit to Webster's Collegiate may be in your future.

Randy Vines on 13-May-2010 08:55 AM

^^I've corrected that, sir. Back to topic...

Rick on 13-May-2010 10:29 AM

Since slaves were sold in downtown St. Louis, lots of people consider St. Louis part of the south.

Jive on 13-May-2010 10:11 PM

St. Louis, Missoura is DEFINITELY in the South. Always has been, always will be.

Why do border cities always try to deny their Southern roots?

Randy V. on 13-May-2010 10:18 PM

Your opinion is welcome, but this I ask: You yourself call St. Louis a "border city," yet you say it is "DEFINITELY" in the South. Isn't that a contradiction? Have you ever really been to the SOUTH South? The contrast is undeniable. St. Louis may have some southern attributes, but overall I find it to be much more like the cities of the north (in my opinion). The only time I have ever seen a Confederate flag in the city proper was on a pickup truck with Indiana plates. A hoosier through and through!

Jive on 15-May-2010 05:24 AM

Of course I've been to the "real" South. The South isn't this huge monolithic region where everyone talks and acts exactly the same.

The vibe of St. Louis is not as southern as Memphis or Jackson, but more of an Upper South flavor, like Cincinnati or Louisville. If you extend the PA-MD border westward through MO, I would consider anything above that to be solidly Northern.

Having visited other cities up north and out east in my spare time, St. Louis always just feels Southern to me. Even though many here do not, I personally am proud to identify as a Southerner.

silly on 15-May-2010 09:12 AM

well if southern pride is a southern trait, st. louis is definitely not southern because southern pride doesn't exist here unless you are the poster above. come on, calling st. louisans "southerners"? ain't that a stretch? for every southern quality in stl there are three non-southern qualities. it's not a matter of denying our heritage, either. st. louis is just not a southern city. all the official designations group stl with the cities of the midwest, not the cities of the south. feel free to prove me wrong. most people would not call st. louis the south.

a.torch on 16-May-2010 09:46 AM

You must travel alot to be able to compare cities. I have only been labeled from a 'Southern City' in Minnesota; but those folks I talked to had never been south of Tennessee, so it makes me wonder. In my travels I found our city very much like other older industrial-Midwest cities: Indy, a bit of Chicago and most certainly Cleveland. We just have some Southern quirks and qualities mixed-in more so than any other Midwest city, like a fairly strong French background, the BLUES and ragtime, etc. The more stark culture shock to me is how much more KC is absolutely a Western city than anywhere else in our state.

Jeff Vines on 17-May-2010 07:13 AM

I don't think St. Louis shares much in common with Indianapolis at all. St. Louis is much more distinguished, urbane and beautiful (not to mention BIGGER- our metro area has a million more people than Indy's). I think the closest comparisons can be made to Pittsburgh, Baltimore and possibly Cincinnati-- all cities that seem to straddle between different regions.

a.torch on 17-May-2010 10:28 PM

Baltimore is not a Midwest industrial city. Indy has alot of the same problems Detroit and Cleveland have but has managed to keep some large companies and airline hubs. Of course STL is more distinguished and larger in size though.

Jeff Vines on 18-May-2010 07:14 AM

Just because Baltimore is not a midwestern city does not mean that it doesn't share a lot of common traits with St. Louis. Some similarities:
--Both are independent cities
--Both metros are nearly the same size
--Both are black-majority cities
--Both skirt the north and south

Anyone who has spent a reasonable amount of time in both cities can recognize the similarities between these two cities.

silly on 18-May-2010 07:32 AM

I agree. I see lot more in common between StL and Baltimore than with StL and Indy.

Jive on 18-May-2010 03:19 PM

You're right. St. Louis and Baltimore DO share one particularly important similarity: they're both SOUTHERN CITIES AT THEIR CORES. :)

a.torch on 18-May-2010 09:04 PM

I didn't know we were comparing Eastern cities w/ St. Louis. I was responding to the previous posts regarding other Midwestern cities. (Not Eastern cities to STL)

Steve on 21-May-2010 07:11 AM

I'm from Memphis and I think St. Louis feels like a Southern city. I've been there many times since I was a kid, it doesn't feel much different from Memphis. Most people in Memphis will tell you that St. Louis is a Southern city. We dont consider yall as yankees. It's only 4 hours aways.

silly on 21-May-2010 10:41 PM

steve, i disagree. i lived in memphis from 2001-2003 and the two cities are very different. memphis loves being a southern city; st. louis would rather be grouped with chicago. that right there tells you something about its identity. in memphis strangers talk to you and it's considered friendly. in st. louis if a stranger talks to you, they are considered creeps. memphis is the same distance from st. louis as chicago, so you cannot easily classify stl by proximity alone.

Steve on 21-May-2010 11:06 PM

I think St. Louis wants to be like Chicago, and wants to distance itself from Memphis. In reality, it has the same amount in common with both cities. It's right in the middle. People in St. Louis just dont want to admit it. People in St. Louis are just as friendly, if not more friendly than Memphis. People in St. Louis have a small town mentality (where'd you go to high school?) like Memphis. St. Louis has a lot of old money, lots of private schools, and debutante balls, just like Memphis.

silly on 22-May-2010 05:54 AM

so if any two cities have anything in common, they are automatically alike? that seems flawed. there are a number of characteristics st louis has in common with many cities. the high school thing isn't a small town mentality so much as it is parochial. in south philly they ask what parish you live in. is philly small town? if st louis is 4.5 hours from both chicago and memphis, you can be sure it will have traits from both regions. it isn't southern or northern in the classic sense.

Steve on 22-May-2010 07:33 AM

That's what I'm saying. St. Louis has just as many similarities with Memphis as it does Chicago, but people in St. Louis are more likely to want to associate with Chicago because it's the bigger city, more educated, more well-known. People is St. Louis aren't going to admit the similarities with Memphis because it's not the most desirable city.

anita on 23-May-2010 07:54 PM

I have a hard time callin Stl a "northern" city. For every northern quality there's a southern quality. Buildings and accents don't make a city "northern" just look at New Orleans. We may have unique accents and brick, but we also have really hot summers and a laid-back vibe. I think southern stereotypes have caused Stl to emphasize its northern qualities more.

Jeff on 25-May-2010 09:27 AM

My german and st. louis ancestry tells me that we are northern.

Mimi on 27-May-2010 03:32 PM

The picture of the train station doesn't prove anything. You can clearly see that most of the people are heading for Chicago & New York, not St. Louis. That's what the artist was trying to show. St. Louis is a Southern city.

silly on 27-May-2010 06:52 PM

Mimi, you are wrong. The picture is Jacob Lawrence's famous The Great Migration, and it depicts St. Louis as a destination entrepot for oppressed blacks fleeing the South. As you can see, the people are packed into the doorways leading to all three cities. We have some Southern characteristics, but no way are we a Southern city, not by any stretch. Anyone who insists that STL is in the South simply hasn't been to the South, plain and simple.

Mimi on 29-May-2010 12:31 AM

Dear Silly,

I am not blind, I can clearly see that there are only 4 people heading into the door for St. Louis, maybe to visit relatives for Thanksgiving or something. It is clear that the vast majority of the people are headed for NYC & Chicago, true Northern cities.

Elcar on 01-Jul-2010 02:14 PM

I grew up in St. Charles. Most of our family live in Alabama, and I have been living in Chicago for the last 16 years. While there are remnants of southern & french influence, I see much more commonality between St. Louis and Chicago. St. Louis is very much a Great Lakes region city, and not a southern city.

Andrew on 09-Jul-2010 11:20 PM

St. Louis is a Midwestern city, no two ways about it. Nothing at all like Memphis. Missouri is also considered part of the Midwestern United States today, and St. Louis and Kansas City are solidly more in line with Chicago, Omaha, Detroit, Cincinnati, and Cleveland. The Northern half of Missouri is solidly Midwestern, feels very much like Iowa. The Southern half, the Ozarks, where my dad grew up, is a transitional zone in between the Midwest and south. The Mississippi embayment, below Cape Girardeau and including Poplar Bluff and the bootheel, is the only part of Missouri that is truly Southern culturally, in terms of speech patterns, and geographically. The Mason-Dixon line is located right below Cape Girardeau....it has long been considered to continue west from MD-PA along the Ohio River to southeast Missouri.

Monday, May 03, 2010

It's not a city without people

I thought I'd share a gallery of random photos that my brother, Randy, and I have snapped over the years. Some of these were taken as long as eight years ago-- others are relatively recent. You may recognize some of the characters, but most are just everyday people doing everyday things in the great city of Saint Louis.

Enjoy...